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dirtysteve
Gold Member

USA
1708 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2014 :  9:58:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit dirtysteve's Homepage  Reply with Quote  [Reply to Topic]  | [Reply w/ Quote]
Will Sonar ever fix the issues it has with BS artifacts and added noise when you bounce 2 or more tracks down to a single track? Today I bounced 3 very quiet, critical tracks down to a sing track and I got way too many artifacts and so much noise that I have to scrap the idea all together. I found a different way to accomplish my objective but what I ended up doing was exporting those 3 tracks to a .wav file and the importing the .wav file. BS, I say.

Anyone else notice this problem? To my ears this has been an issue since Sonar evolved from PA9. I never had these issues with PA9. Never.



Always fly high
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mcintalker
Platinum Member

USA
6359 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2014 :  08:32:03 AM  Show Profile  Visit mcintalker's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hmmmm I guess I never bounced tracks together, so I haven't had the problem.

What is the reason for bouncing them to a single track? It seems you have found another way to accomplish your goal.

I do look forward to more info on this issue. Maybe someone knows why you're getting so much noise or how to avoid it.

Michael
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garrigus
Moderator

USA
14514 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2014 :  10:40:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit garrigus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
When tracks are bounced together, the audio is "added" in to the final track so any residual noise will increase if the original tracks contain noise.

Not sure about the artifacts though... have you tried using a different audio driver mode?

Or maybe try doing a real-time bounce instead of a fast bounce...

Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - http://www.garrigus.com
* Cakewalk SONAR Video Tutorials: https://www.youtube.com/user/ScottGarrigus?sub_confirmation=1
* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series: http://garrigus.com/?PowerBooks
* Publisher of the DigiFreq music recording newsletter: http://www.digifreq.com/
* Publisher of the NewTechReview consumer tech newsletter: http://www.newtechreview.com/
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dirtysteve
Gold Member

USA
1708 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2014 :  3:33:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit dirtysteve's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Scott, I tried the real-time bounce and the noise was even higher and there were not only more artifacts but there was distortion. And the resulting noise in the bounced sum is way more than it should be. It's a lot more than what you hear when the 3 individual tracks are playing together. No effects on the master bus either.

I've got 3 stereo tracks of wind chimes in a very quiet environment with the Gain on my pre's turned down way low, because this is a critical instrument and will be the only instrument in this project. 1 track panned hard left, the other panned hard right and offset by 5ms (for Haas effect) and the 3rd track is straight up the middle at low volume with stereo reverb. It's a meditation project.

But the 16 bit .wav sum is nice and quiet with no artifacts (as usual).

Always fly high
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jack c.
Gold Member

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2014 :  6:53:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
if i may-------why are ya bouncing tracks?what vst plugins do ya have on each of those tracks?
wind chimes can cause lots of weird stuff sooooooooo maybe artifacts???????3 stereo tracks of wind chimes.i bet this is the problem wind chimes aren't stereo change to mono as well as stereo reverb to mono and never mind haas efx!!!!!!!!
i (if ya been reading me comments for a few years)have found vst plugins do on-going endless new problems.so if ya needs to bounce then take 1 track at a time(after saved)and delete 1 vst or whatever ya added to said track and listen with/without headphones and live to find the problem.i'll just bet that's why luggage is traveling.


jack c.
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mcintalker
Platinum Member

USA
6359 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2014 :  7:45:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit mcintalker's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I suppose you've explored this issue on the CW forum, but it seems like there is some way to do it without problems. I will try it, if it rains tomorrow and I get the day off from gardening.

Good luck! and keep the faith! I bet there's a solution.

Michael
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dirtysteve
Gold Member

USA
1708 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2014 :  08:14:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit dirtysteve's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jack c.

if i may-------why are ya bouncing tracks?what vst plugins do ya have on each of those tracks?
wind chimes can cause lots of weird stuff sooooooooo maybe artifacts???????3 stereo tracks of wind chimes.i bet this is the problem wind chimes aren't stereo change to mono as well as stereo reverb to mono and never mind haas efx!!!!!!!!
i (if ya been reading me comments for a few years)have found vst plugins do on-going endless new problems.so if ya needs to bounce then take 1 track at a time(after saved)and delete 1 vst or whatever ya added to said track and listen with/without headphones and live to find the problem.i'll just bet that's why luggage is traveling.





Right, chimes are a mono source but we hear them in stereo because we have 2 ears. It's just like every other mono source, recording in stereo gives you a more realistic and dimensional capture. The problem is not how I recorded them at all. The problem is how Sonar sums the tracks during a bounce. Somehow the creates noise and artifacts, at least on the version I'm running. And I've never had problems with vst's either.

No big deal, it doesn't matter. I found a work around by creating a single .wav file and that's working for me.

This isn't the first time I've run into this problem. I've seen it with other projects using other instruments. The result is always the same. It just seems odd to me that PA9 never had this problem.

Always fly high
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garrigus
Moderator

USA
14514 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2014 :  10:31:25 AM  Show Profile  Visit garrigus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hmmm... another weird problem. Not sure what's happening there. The bounce should be the same as the export. Unfortunately, yeah, a lot of times we just need to find workarounds.

Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - http://www.garrigus.com
* Cakewalk SONAR Video Tutorials: https://www.youtube.com/user/ScottGarrigus?sub_confirmation=1
* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series: http://garrigus.com/?PowerBooks
* Publisher of the DigiFreq music recording newsletter: http://www.digifreq.com/
* Publisher of the NewTechReview consumer tech newsletter: http://www.newtechreview.com/
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dirtysteve
Gold Member

USA
1708 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2014 :  08:42:37 AM  Show Profile  Visit dirtysteve's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Update:
The increased noise from bouncing is an issue but the artifacts I mentioned before were my fault and were actually the result of tracking the chimes in a space with highly reflective surfaces, so the undesirable transients of the crystal "striker" were hyped by those reflective surfaces (walls).

I fixed that problem by re-tracking in my walk-in closet, which is about 6' x 9' and of course is filled with clothes hanging up and carpet on the floor. I was able to get a very quiet pristine track yesterday and my problem is solved. Still have to use the work around of exporting as a .wav file to get a file I can crossfade to extend out to a 30 minute track for meditations, but hey, whatever works, right?

Always fly high
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mcintalker
Platinum Member

USA
6359 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2014 :  09:40:56 AM  Show Profile  Visit mcintalker's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Congratulations! I knew you'd figure it out and find the source of your artifacts!

Way to go Sherlock! I bet you feel really good, now!

I wish I had a walk-in closet, but am plotting how to do that in my study, which isn't that much bigger. LOL
Michael
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dirtysteve
Gold Member

USA
1708 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2014 :  10:03:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit dirtysteve's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mcintalker

Congratulations! I knew you'd figure it out and find the source of your artifacts!

Way to go Sherlock! I bet you feel really good, now!

I wish I had a walk-in closet, but am plotting how to do that in my study, which isn't that much bigger. LOL
Michael



Just takes patience and perseverance.

Always fly high
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mcintalker
Platinum Member

USA
6359 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2014 :  10:10:39 AM  Show Profile  Visit mcintalker's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Right! I always feel like I learn a lot from my curiosity and tracking down my recording issues. Though I might get pissed off and a headache, I remind myself that I will be smarter and better informed when it's all said and done.
Michael
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garrigus
Moderator

USA
14514 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2014 :  10:52:19 AM  Show Profile  Visit garrigus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yep, the source material definitely needs to be quiet or bouncing will exacerbate the noise.

Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - http://www.garrigus.com
* Cakewalk SONAR Video Tutorials: https://www.youtube.com/user/ScottGarrigus?sub_confirmation=1
* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series: http://garrigus.com/?PowerBooks
* Publisher of the DigiFreq music recording newsletter: http://www.digifreq.com/
* Publisher of the NewTechReview consumer tech newsletter: http://www.newtechreview.com/
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dirtysteve
Gold Member

USA
1708 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2014 :  12:00:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit dirtysteve's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Update:

So here's a clip of how the chimes turned out.

https://soundcloud.com/12thhouse/pure-chimes-clip

Always fly high
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mcintalker
Platinum Member

USA
6359 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2014 :  2:59:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit mcintalker's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I can't get it to make any sound! It plays (other tracks on Sound Cloud play/sound)but no sound, nothing is muted....

Is it me? or what? I can play/hear Jemez Canyon, etc, just not The Chimes.

Michael

Edited by - mcintalker on 06/19/2014 3:01:36 PM
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dirtysteve
Gold Member

USA
1708 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2014 :  4:54:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit dirtysteve's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mcintalker

I can't get it to make any sound! It plays (other tracks on Sound Cloud play/sound)but no sound, nothing is muted....

Is it me? or what? I can play/hear Jemez Canyon, etc, just not The Chimes.

Michael



That's odd. Seems to play ok for me. Maybe someone else will chime in.

Always fly high
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