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 Hum Eliminator...
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Spanky
Silver Member

USA
557 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2008 :  12:50:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  [Reply to Topic]  | [Reply w/ Quote]
Anyone ever used one of these gizmo's?...
http://www.ebtechaudio.com/he-2des.html
It'supposed to get rid of 60Hz hum usually attributed to "ground loops". I have three amps in my "studio". I switch between them and different effects boxes using a Whirlwind switch box. I get a horrendous amount of noise when all three are on... not neccessarily being played... just powered on. The Ebtech box doesn't do much to eliminate any of the noise. I wonder if it's not the ground loop hum at all but something else.
What is the main purpose of the "power conditioners" such as the one's Furman makes? Is it just a surge protector device to protect your rig during live performance?
I've read a lot of stuff about them but still not sure if it will solve any noise problems that I am having... maybe from "dirty" current in my house?

S~


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lawapa
Moderator

USA
2106 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2008 :  1:18:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guitar Amps just tend to hum. On this end anyway. Add the fact you have all three amps attached to one guitar and even when your switched into only one the others do have a connection for a ground loop. Not sure if the switch craft box is the culprit.

Power conditioners can help but In my limited experience don't get rid of amp hum.

Could you isolate these amps on different legs of your household
circuit? I've heard G loops form between different gear connected on the same circuit leg where the different gear has slight differences in operating impedance. This Impedance is seen by the circuit as resistance and voltage will flow between this difference. If these devices didn't share a connection they would not form Ground loops. But they do because ya gotta plug that guit_box in.


Love to make that music,as well I love to tweak,Make my own sample sets
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Spanky
Silver Member

USA
557 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2008 :  12:29:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Larry,
Thanks for your reply.
quote:
Could you isolate these amps on different legs of your household
circuit?

Hmmmm....
I've read on one of these forums once that a power strip with multiple outlets should be used to plug ALL you stuff into so that's what I've always done.

S~
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Beagle
Bronze Member

USA
478 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2008 :  08:50:03 AM  Show Profile  Visit Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ground loops form when you plug your equipment into DIFFERENT circuits in the house. Spanky's doing it right if he's plugging everything into the SAME circuit.

Ground loops can still occur just between equipment, depending on how the mfg created the circuits - but you'll reduce your chances by plugging everything into the same circuit that you can.

hum from amplifiers can come from transformers and tubes and if that's the case, you won't get rid of the hum by trying to chase down a ground loop problem. you'll just have to deal with it, or replace the amps with something quieter.

if it is a grounding problem, however, use a Furman balanced power isolated transformer (IT-1230) run 4 conductor cable to its own circuit and ground to eliminate RFI noise, 60 hz hum

Q6600 2.4GHz
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lawapa
Moderator

USA
2106 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2008 :  09:55:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/index.html

Ground loops between audio equipment is a complex problem

Isolation transformers are expensive but do offer help in stopping this problem. Filtered and conditioned power supplies also can not be over emphasized.

If you guitar amp hums when you turn it own before anything is plugged into it, that is self noise and is not a grounding problem.

Love to make that music,as well I love to tweak,Make my own sample sets
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Beagle
Bronze Member

USA
478 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2008 :  10:17:28 AM  Show Profile  Visit Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
well that's the first article I've ever seen that suggest using DIFFERENT grounding points and honestly I disagree with it. I am an Electrical Engineer and if I were to design something with different grounding points to go on an USAF jet, I'd be called a rookie and someone would redesign it for me.

the only way to eliminate ground loops is to have the same common ground point. the designs of each piece of equipment may have already caused inconsistancies in their circuitry which prevent common grounding, but putting the different equipment on separate circuits doesn't solve the problem - it only adds to it.

Sorry to disagree with you, lawapa, you are very knowledgable and if you still disagree with me, that's fine we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Q6600 2.4GHz
4G DDR2 RAM
M-audio Delta 44
Sonar 8 PE
Behringer 2031A's
Mackie CR1604
http://www.beaglesound.com
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garrigus
Moderator

USA
14504 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2008 :  10:43:08 AM  Show Profile  Visit garrigus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What I did was connect all my equipment to a single circuit breaker line and made sure not to plug anything else into that circuit. So my home studio equipment is not sharing the same circuit as anything else in the house. I haven't had any problem with ground loops.

Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - http://www.garrigus.com
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GK_Studio
Bronze Member

USA
287 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2008 :  1:37:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not that Beagle needs my approval, but he is correct in telling you that you need to keep it all together... guitars should be rolled off at 200 hz in a mix anyway.

GK_Studio
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lawapa
Moderator

USA
2106 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2008 :  6:02:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
guitars should be rolled off at 200 Hz in a mix anyway.


I agree and do so. I might not brick wall at 200 but at -24 around 80Hz with a slope I'm loosing most.

Beagle your not off the mark. Conventional wisdom Supports that,"everything on the same circuit" I solved my few hum problems though by dividing my studio power into 2 circuits. All my lighting/ power conditioners on one connecting my computers/monitors and all my mixers/effects digital and analog/amps/everything else on another.

All grounds in most homes are run with Romex and all grounds are tied together. Some legs for some reason in my old house have a tendency to be noisy. Because I'm in the basement I can access the ones I found to have less noise.

Last but not least every situation is different, so every time you pack it up and go you can encounter a somewhat different problem so no across the board fix is suitable except maybe isolation transformers. Ground loops can be very hard to solve I was lucky in that I only started with one hummer and fixed it. My mixer. I'm not a EE but I worked as an industrial electrician for a few years. My knowledge is more intuition than a masters degree.

Love to make that music,as well I love to tweak,Make my own sample sets
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Beagle
Bronze Member

USA
478 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2008 :  6:26:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I can certainly agree that each situation may call for different solutions. As a general rule, tho, different circuits will create more problems by creating loops between the two grounds before they reach that one point they are all tied to in a house. Also some ground legs in some houses may be noisier than others because of various reasons - worn or poor insulation, poor connections or even devices on that circuit with poor internal grounding or high EMI.

I cannot agree with any statement, however, about always putting amps on different circuits. Maybe some of the time that works, but that's going to be a small minority of the time, not the majority. It doesn't seem like that's what you're saying now - tho I wasn't sure from your earlier post.

I also agree that ground loops can be very difficult to solve - even FIND. So we're not disagreeing very much, I suppose!

Q6600 2.4GHz
4G DDR2 RAM
M-audio Delta 44
Sonar 8 PE
Behringer 2031A's
Mackie CR1604
http://www.beaglesound.com
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lawapa
Moderator

USA
2106 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2008 :  12:54:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree 100% Those pesky problems have as many solutions as there are home studios.

What I wish was that all manufacturers would agree to design all audio/video gear with an eye to having these problems go away permanently.

quote:
or high EMI.


Old freezer kicking on/off. Washing machines

Love to make that music,as well I love to tweak,Make my own sample sets
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Spanky
Silver Member

USA
557 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2008 :  02:16:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hmmmmm......
Oh.
Thanks.......... I think.

S~
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lawapa
Moderator

USA
2106 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2008 :  12:56:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My home was built in the early 20's Spanky. Wiring was added later on so I've got a Hodge_podge of different wire types. Not a typical new home wiring set up. If this sounds confusing it is.

Under normal circumstances if you follow Beagles advice your good. Oh Just avoid those inductive loads like washing machines/refrigerators/freezers/dishwashers. Anything with a electric motor.

I use ups Power supplies with voltage regulation for under voltage designed for computers/peripherals.

Love to make that music,as well I love to tweak,Make my own sample sets
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