I'm really curious as to who is using what outboard gear in conjunction with Sonar. Most people I talk to prefer the non-destructive nature of plugins. However, I LOVE rack gear! :)
Ken, tell me what you use your outboard compressor for? I'd love to justify one and mod a 3630 (they are so cheap), but I'm not sure if I'd ever use it...
Yeah, I love using software unless it's just not possible as is the case when you need to alter the signal before it hits the sound card. For example, I apply a limiter when recording vocals so as not to overload the sound card input.
My sound card is a rack mount, the Echo Mona. I've also got the Presonus Eureka (for compression/limiting). And I've also got the SoundArt Chameleon, which can actually be programmed to do all kinds of stuff such as work as an outboard synth or as an outboard effects processor, etc.
I also have some old rack synth modules (Proteus 2, TX81Z, etc.) but I don't really use them any more.
Best,
Scott
--
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Since I've gotten the Pro VLA I've used it for just about everything. And also, since then, I've found less need in some cases to use compression plugs in Sonar.
For instance, on vocals, using just a touch of compression (less than 2:1) at a Threshold around -15dB and an Output boost around +2 I'm getting nice smooth mids, tight highs and tight lows and the only plug I've used in Sonar to assist the tone of vocals now is the Tape Sim (which IMO puts back what low cost A/D converters steal away). I also use a 50-60ms Delay in an Aux bus to thicken a bit. That's just me though, and everyone has different vocal needs. But that's what it's done for me having outboard compression in the vocal chain committed to HD.
With electric bass yesterday, I went DI to my pre/DI then to the compressor to just simply boost the signal going into my DAW without introducing noise. So many people (incl. myself) complain about DI boxes and pre/DI's having such a weak output. An outboard compressor allows you to boost the signal in a transparent way giving you the opportunity to also squash the dynamics a little if you need to.
For acoustic guitars it's just a lovely dream come true IMO to have a touch of compression (less than 2:1), and a bit of a boost. Really, moderate volume levels from the microphone and pre are the best levels to have with acoustic guitar. So, how do you then take that lovely signal with a moderate volume level, keep it quiet and noise-free and boost that particular signal. Simple...with a nice compressor.
The more obvious argument for compression comes when you're dealing with percussion, drums and effects percussion. No need to illustrate the need for that. Compression on a room mic, for instance, is really nice to play with too.
A lot of guys argue you should print the signal clean with no effects. So then, why does Steve Albini have a compressor in his signal chain when he tracks acoustic guitars? Why do people like Gary Newman commit effects to HD when doing basic tracking? Why does Joel Hamilton do the same? Joel has talked about compression as an important element, even if just for color.
If you give it a try and work with getting really great signals from the beginning you'll find there's so much less to do in the mixing phase and less ways to make mistakes by hacking stuff up with EQ so much when mixing in the box. That includes guitar effects too. Good grief, just commit to the signal go with that.
Now, I'm not not an expert and I'm not making any hit records over here in New Mexico. So take what I say as nothing more than what it is. It's just my opinion. But I believe I'm producing increasingly better recordings and tones lately than I ever have and it's strictly due to the recording process: mic placement, committing to print with effects and compression and the integration of some interesting antique gear here and there (less emphasis on the latter). My guitar skills haven't improved any lately and I'm certainly not a better singer than I was last year so it's gotta be the way I'm tracking the recordings. I'm employing a few skills in Sonar that emulate hardware tricks from the old days and that's helped also. But I think the bulk of the improvement of my recordings lately has been committing to effects and using a compressor up front so I can hang onto the nice mids that make any recording more interesting to listen to.
The Alesis 3630 is a really popular model to use especially after the standard mods you've read about. I think everybody and their mother's got one from Tucumcari to Glasgow.
Of course, this stuff only applies really if you're tracking instruments. It doesn't have too much to do with Electronic music or MIDI.
I'm tracking mostly electric and accoustic guitar. I attempt to sing every now and then, but when I say I really can't sing, I'm NOT being falsely modest. :)
I think I'll pick up a 3630 and mod it and give it a try after my pre. I love rack gear and lots of lights, so what the hell! he he
What Ken said about effects struck home. I hear that lot of people record their signal dry and add effects after the fact. I didn't spend a small fortune and a lot of years building my pedal board with vintage and boutique gear to not use it. In my opinion, nothing sounds like tape echo other than a tape echo, so I want my Echoplex recorded. Believing this, I can see where the idea of sending the signal through a compressor before it ever hits the sound card makes sense too.
James, especially with electric guitar, I find it impossible to get the tone you're hearing from the amp into a DAW or to Tape utterly impossible without a compressor.
If there's not a compressor between your mic pre or the last box in your pedal chain then you're forced to reduce your volume levels until you're no longer clipping in Sonar. Screw that, because you always loose so much tone that way. A compressor between the mic pre (assuming you're miking an amp) and your DAW allows you to gently compress the signal so that you totally retain that beautiful tone you're creating all the way into the box without sacrificing the tone. 'Perceived' loudness is everything.
The 3630 will also allow you to do cool things like take the output from channel 1 (of the compressor) and cascade it over to channel 2. This allows limiting on channel 1 followed by slight compression in channel 2, allowing you to deal with high volume levels (like a guitar amp) more gently and effectively. I was just using my Pro VLA that way today on vocals and was getting a really nice effect from it. I ended up with vocals that required no EQ whatsoever, no Tape Sim plugs, no nothing. It's hard to beat that.
Sounds like you have some things figured out! I'm still floundering. I've use SM57s and an ART TPS preamp (changed the tube to an Electro Harmonix and it's a new unit). I never know where to set the Gain vs. Output. I have analog meters, but still not sure where they should hit. I've learned to keep the peaks at -6db in Sonar, but I'm still confused on how to properly use the preamp.
From what you're describing, it sounds like you'd lose the dynamics of the guitar amp, but the results you're describing sounds like you're not. I've got an all original 64 Super Reverb and a Dr. Z Maz 18, so tone is important to me. I'd love to figure out how to best capture them. I don't even run a compressor in my pedal chain (though I own two good ones) just because I've never gotten the hang of compressors. Wierd.
If you have any advice on how to record guitars through my gear, I'd be most greatful if you could share! :)
You've got 2 beautiful amps there James. I remember when you bought the Dr. Z. You were really stoked about it, and rightfully so. And I've always been a huge fan of Fender amps and Fender speakers too. Eminence speakers sound great in Fender amps to me too. Eminence speakers have a way of retaining that unique Sparkley tone Fender amps are famous for. The 64 Super Reverb is a killer find.
Personally, I don't like having a compressor in a pedal chain either. No compression between the guitar and the amp is the only way to work with a Fender amp or a boutique amp like the Dr. Z. Let the tubes in the power stage and/or the tubes in the pre-amp stage of the amp handle that. Then you're getting a very natural and dynamic compression that truly expresses your picking style and pick attack, your choice of strings, the properties of your pickups, wood, neck, fingering, etc.
Where you really want to compress is between the microphone pre's and the DAW (or Tape/ADAT/whatever).
I'd recommend not limiting yourself to a -6dB singal in Sonar. When you're tracking, get the hottest signal you can into Sonar. Even if you're playing in the Red Zone around +6 it's OK. Just try not to clip, that's all.
With your TPS, the Gain and Output levels are there for you to be able to control the mic's Input level (Gain) and the preamps Output level to your DAW (or whatever's next in the chain). This is where I find that moderate levels are usually best. Think of it this way, all of your tone is coming from the amp. Those volume levels are set and those EQ settings are set to where you're loving what you're hearing from the guitar. So you shouldn't need that much Gain from the mic, especially with an SM57, they have plenty of output. A moderate Gain (like +8) should be pretty quiet and then the rest of your volume from the pre should be on the back end at the Output (say 0 or +2 maybe). From there you should be getting a signal out that's not clipping your pre. [And again, we're just talking about miking electric guitar.]
At that point is where you'd want the 3630 to come in and take that mic signal from the pre, compress it a little so it's manageable, right on into your DAW so that in Sonar you're pinging the channel fader at about +4 or maybe higher from time to time; getting a bloody thick mother-beautiful guitar signal. LOL.
The TPS also has that Impedence control which will give you different tones from your mic. That's an awesome feature to play with and you won't hurt your mic by fiddling around with it. Use your ears to determine what settings sound best to you. You know what you want to hear.
My guess would be that if you've been trying to keep the signal going into Sonar down at about -6dB that you've been sacrificing tone and coming up with a signal that has a little too much noise for your taste. If you go in Hot, just under clipping, then when you reduce the channel fader in mixdown to normal levels you'll have a signal that's much more accurate and not as noisey.
Guitars are noisey man, and amps are noisey. And there's no way around that unless you get into so many hum-cancelling tricks that you totally lose any simblance of signature-tone. When it comes to electric guitars, I don't think the listener gives 3 shits about a little bit of hiss. I think they just want to hear some bitchin' sounds.
There are a lot of guitarists here on this site and hopefully others will chime in with how they track guitars. Alot of the guys here make some really great guitar sounds and know more than I do about this stuff.
Depending on what I want to do I have hold overs from the dinosaur days :)+)
My outbord list is:
SY-99 Yamaha keyboard workstation
Roland D-100,2-TX81zs
Yamaha GC2020 comp/lim
' ' Q2031 graphic EQ
Aphex aural exciter type b
Digitech DSP 128
BBE Sonic Max
Presonus Blue tube pre
Digitech GSP
>>> You've got 2 beautiful amps there James. I remember when you bought the Dr. Z. You were really stoked about it, and rightfully so. And I've always been a huge fan of Fender amps and Fender speakers too. The 64 Super Reverb is a killer find.
I still need to post pictures of the completed studio (I'll get off my ass as soon as my moog Murf shows up and I can rewire my pedal board). I do have some pictures of the Super though:
http://www.jamesfoxall.com/64Super.htm
I checked all the date codes before purchasing, and it's completely original. It's even got the rare ceramic Jensens which sound ubelievable. I had the filter caps and plate resisters changed, and one speaker reconed. I am ABSOLUTELY in love with this amp. :)
I've been using a Switchbone to run the Z and the Super together and I can get some amazingly full tones. All of my pedals are true-bypass (or in bypass loops), so I'm not comfortable using the Switchbone because of its buffer. But it doesn't appear to affect the tone much.
>>> Let the tubes in the power stage and/or the tubes in the pre-amp stage of the amp handle that. Then you're getting a very natural and dynamic compression that truly expresses your picking style and pick attack, your choice of strings, the properties of your pickups, wood, neck, fingering, etc.
I agree!
>>> I'd recommend not limiting yourself to a -6dB singal in Sonar. When you're tracking, get the hottest signal you can into Sonar. Even if you're playing in the Red Zone around +6 it's OK. Just try not to clip, that's all.
That's always what I thought, but I keep reading more and more about the -6 target. I'm going to have to record the same passage both ways and see if one sounds better.
>>> A moderate Gain (like +8) should be pretty quiet and then the rest of your volume from the pre should be on the back end at the Output (say 0 or +2 maybe).
Would you run the gain higher for vocals or accoustic? From what I understand, the gain saturates the tube, so in some cases you want that, whereas with guitar amps, you've already got a tube sound. Is this correct?
>>> From there you should be getting a signal out that's not clipping your pre. [And again, we're just talking about miking electric guitar.]
So that's where the analog meters on the TPS come in right? I belive the meters are on the gain stage, showing the amount of tube saturation. If that's the case, perhaps the meters don't mean so much here? I'll watch the soundcard inputs for clipping and adjust the Output of the TPS accordingly. Do I have this right? If so, the only use for the meters I could see is watching the limiting if you use one of those settings on the TPS.
>>> At that point is where you'd want the 3630 to come in and take that mic signal from the pre, compress it a little so it's manageable, right on into your DAW so that in Sonar you're pinging the channel fader at about +4 or maybe higher from time to time; getting a bloody thick mother-beautiful guitar signal. LOL.
This is where I get extra confused. lol Hom much compression? I know you don't want the sqeeze the life out of it, so what are you shooting for? Also, the Output of the TPS controls the levels, so what limiting would the 3630 be doing? I guess I'm just not getting it - but something tells me if I 'get it' it will make a big difference! :)
>>> The TPS also has that Impedence control which will give you different tones from your mic. That's an awesome feature to play with and you won't hurt your mic by fiddling around with it. Use your ears to determine what settings sound best to you. You know what you want to hear.
That's basically the v3 voicing right? Which, I've been told, is an EQ circuit that comes after the gain stage? If so, then wouldn't you just be better off to EQ with a plugin since the EQ changes don't affect the tone because they come after the tube? I suppose either way, it makes sense to dial whichever preset sounds best...
>>> My guess would be that if you've been trying to keep the signal going into Sonar down at about -6dB that you've been sacrificing tone and coming up with a signal that has a little too much noise for your taste. If you go in Hot, just under clipping, then when you reduce the channel fader in mixdown to normal levels you'll have a signal that's much more accurate and not as noisey.
I've only recently started experimenting with the -6db. As much gear as I have and as long as I've been playing with it, it's just terrible how little I still know about all of this!
>>> When it comes to electric guitars, I don't think the listener gives 3 shits about a little bit of hiss. I think they just want to hear some bitchin' sounds.
I agree with this!
I really appreciate the input, Ken. One of my goals is to really get the technical side down to a level where I can more quickly get my ideas down to the HD.
I checked out the photos on your Super. What a beautiful thing!!! God! The sound must be amazing. Rich, creamy, sparkling tone for eons! The Jensens are a nice touch. You're lucky they weren't switched out and only one had to be reconed.
When you mic that amp to record do you mic the front and the back?
Your Gain:Output ratios will (and should) change from application to application adn from session to session. I've had great results lately starting at really conservative settings on the mic pre which can tame the self-noise you get from the mic, the cheap pre (I have budget pre's also) and get the additional boost I want from the compressor. However, when I really want to hear the room I'll boost the Gain, which makes the mic signal coming in hotter. So yes, with acoustic guitar you want the Gain a little hotter than usual for acoustic guitar because your mics are typically 6 inches to 2 feet away from the instrument. Depending on the mics you're using and the dynamics of the arrangment. Remember, Depth of Field starts with the original track. So say you have 2 different AC guitar arrangments and they're supposed to accompany each other you'll want them in different spaces in your Depth of Field so you might further fool the ears by tracking one guitar 6 inches from the mics and the accompanying guitar 2 feet from the mics so the EQ and proximity effect are completely different.
Same with vocals. Moderate Gain on the pre with a bit of a higher output keeps the mic quiet, tames transients coming from the mic, but gives you a nice workable signal coming out to the compressor or DAW. Mic proximity, Gain:Output ratio on the pre, choice of mics, etc., all have a bearing on natural EQ and presence and spacial placement on your sound canvass.
Man, I dont' even look at the meters any more. I look at the meters in Sonar to make sure I'm not clipping and rely on my ears to tell me if I've got the tone, presence and proximity and room effect that I'm going to be happy with.
Think about where the instrument is going to be placed on the sound canvass and try to emulate the proximity effects you'll need through mic placement, choice of mic pattern, Gain:Output ratio and amount of the Room (Air) you're hearing in the mic.
You may not always want to have that 57 right up against the grill. You might want some Air in there. You know, hear a little bit of the room's natural reverb.
The tube saturation you're getting from the mic pre is less of a factor IMO with the budget pre's because it's typically not a beautiful and musical saturation you're getting (if any at all). That depends on what you're hearing though. If you hear something you like at full saturation that sounds good to you then punch record and have at it. My pre's sound good if my saturation settings are at 1 o'clock to 4 o'clock (or 50% to 85%) but I'm using ECC83S tubes which have about 70% to 80% of the output of a 12AX7. They have a lower output so they're not as noisey and are a little more silky than AX7's.
Your v3 voicing is an EQ effect based on varying impedence load and I don't know if the TPS actually changes the impedence (I would hope it does) or if it's just an emulation circuit. But it definitely will change the 'voicing' (EQ) of your mic. It's a great feature.
As far as explaining exactly what the compressor does for the signal I don't quite know how to explain that one. Save to say that a compressor does a lot for you between your pre and the DAW to help in 2 major ways (for me)
1. Focuses the signal
2. Allows you to pipe in a signal that sounds more like what you're hearing out in the open as the artist. The signal after compression sounds bigger, more open, natural, lifelike.
That may sound like an oxymoron, but your ears can handle processing the decibels and the dynamics all at the same time whereas computers and cheap electronics can't. The compressor allows you to tame the higher peaks in the dynamics so they don't overrun and overload the signal; allowing the lower peaks to also be heard. So you hear (in the box) a signal that has the same feel, dynamic and 'perceived' volume that your ears hear as the artist outside the box. I'm bad at illustrating stuff like that but hopefully that helps.
I never understood it until I heard it for myself and was just blown away. I was like a virgin that just had his cherry popped and walked around with a stupid grin on my face for a week.
Actually, the answer is right there in your amplifiers. What does your guitar sound like through a $100 Crate amp compared to your Super, or your Dr. Z? The cheap, solid state amp doesn't have the 'focus' or dynamic or life that your Super has. The output you get is just kind of all over the place. But the tone you get from the Super is more like 'hey, that's what it's really supposed to sound like??!!! WOW!!'.
>>> Yeah, I'm just full of it man. LOL. Full of sh$$
Well, we got THAT in common! lol
>>> I checked out the photos on your Super. What a beautiful thing!!! God! The sound must be amazing. Rich, creamy, sparkling tone for eons! The Jensens are a nice touch. You're lucky they weren't switched out and only one had to be reconed.
I can't even begin to describe the tone from this amp. I really considered the amp before purchase as I paid top dollar for it. Once I had the caps done and the speaker reconed (three weeks after I purchased it) and plugged in, the cost and worry melted away. I bought it for the Fender clean, but I had no idea what the thing would do when it broke up. I turn it to about 6 and get that tube break-up going and it's heaven. I never liked my Analogman modded TS-9 until I played it through this amp. When I stomp the pedal, the tone just jumps! I usually play with my 79 strat with Fralin pickups and I just cannot believe how good it sounds. A good friend of mine who knows all things amps (he's an amp tech and has a line of custom pedals) showed me something new. I have been stewing to get a vintage Marshall. Well, he plugged my strat into channel 1 (which I never messed with) and turned the bass and treble all the way down (something I wouldn't have done) while cranking the volume (ok, I would have done that) and BOOM - a very plexi-like sound. WTF? This may be the perfect amp for me - period. When he stomped on my Black Dog (a pedal he builds based on a Distortion Plus) you could close your eyes and swear it was a Marshall. This from a Fender strat into a Fender amp. I'm just blown away. We A/Bd it against a re-issue, and while the new amp was nice, it was nothing compared to the 64. Warm, warm, warm! While mine has ceramics, the new one has alnicos. Speakers alone would dictate that the reissue sound warmer, but it did't come close! That tells you something about the Blackface amps. Now that I KNOW, no one will ever convince me a reissue or a Pod gets the same sound as a vintage piece. No way.
Anyway, now I'm rambling... he he
>>> When you mic that amp to record do you mic the front and the back?
That's what I'm in the process of trying to figure out.
>>> Your Gain:Output ratios will (and should) change from application to application adn from session to session.
Damnit! Is nothing black and white anymore? :) I'm always asking Mike questions (the tech), and his answer usually begins with 'it depends'. damnit.
>>> I've had great results lately starting at really conservative settings on the mic pre which can tame the self-noise you get from the mic, the cheap pre (I have budget pre's also) and get the additional boost I want from the compressor. However, when I really want to hear the room I'll boost the Gain, which makes the mic signal coming in hotter. So yes, with acoustic guitar you want the Gain a little hotter than usual for acoustic guitar because your mics are typically 6 inches to 2 feet away from the instrument. Depending on the mics you're using and the dynamics of the arrangment. Remember, Depth of Field starts with the original track. So say you have 2 different AC guitar arrangments and they're supposed to accompany each other you'll want them in different spaces in your Depth of Field so you might further fool the ears by tracking one guitar 6 inches from the mics and the accompanying guitar 2 feet from the mics so the EQ and proximity effect are completely different.
That totally makes sense - I must not really understand it. :)
>>> Same with vocals. Moderate Gain on the pre with a bit of a higher output keeps the mic quiet, tames transients coming from the mic, but gives you a nice workable signal coming out to the compressor or DAW. Mic proximity, Gain:Output ratio on the pre, choice of mics, etc., all have a bearing on natural EQ and presence and spacial placement on your sound canvass.
Still with ya...
>>> Man, I dont' even look at the meters any more. I look at the meters in Sonar to make sure I'm not clipping and rely on my ears to tell me if I've got the tone, presence and proximity and room effect that I'm going to be happy with.
That's good to hear, since I've been doing the same thing.
>>> Think about where the instrument is going to be placed on the sound canvas and try to emulate the proximity effects you'll need through mic placement, choice of mic pattern, Gain:Output ratio and amount of the Room (Air) you're hearing in the mic.
That's tricky for the inexperienced (ie me)
>>> The tube saturation you're getting from the mic pre is less of a factor IMO with the budget pre's because it's typically not a beautiful and musical saturation you're getting (if any at all). That depends on what you're hearing though.
Of course, I need to make a bunch of scratch tracks with the same riff and altering only one factor at a time (gain, output, mic proximity, etc.) Maybe I can ask Santa for some more free time...
>>> Your v3 voicing is an EQ effect based on varying impedence load and I don't know if the TPS actually changes the impedence (I would hope it does) or if it's just an emulation circuit. But it definitely will change the 'voicing' (EQ) of your mic. It's a great feature.
I'll be playing with that more. I'm more into now that I changed out the stock tube - HUGE difference.
>>> 2. That may sound like an oxymoron, but your ears can handle processing the decibels and the dynamics all at the same time whereas computers and cheap electronics can't. The compressor allows you to tame the higher peaks in the dynamics so they don't overrun and overload the signal; allowing the lower peaks to also be heard. So you hear (in the box) a signal that has the same feel, dynamic and 'perceived' volume that your ears hear as the artist outside the box. I'm bad at illustrating stuff like that but hopefully that helps.
So, the compressor is acting more like a limiter and less at bringing up low parts? So you're keeping your dynamics but taming your peeks?
>>> I never understood it until I heard it for myself and was just blown away. I was like a virgin that just had his cherry popped and walked around with a stupid grin on my face for a week.
I have a few friends that own studios. I need to just sit in on a session with them. I bet I'd learn a LOT. I have another friend who works for a sound company. They're doing the concert tonight for the opening of the College World Series. Some country star is playing - Dirks Bently I think. My friend invited me down to hang with him while he's working the board and such. Perhaps I'll pick something up there too. There's a LOT to learn!
>>> Actually, the answer is right there in your amplifiers. What does your guitar sound like through a $100 Crate amp compared to your Super, or your Dr. Z?
rotflmao!
>>> The cheap, solid state amp doesn't have the 'focus' or dynamic or life that your Super has. The output you get is just kind of all over the place. But the tone you get from the Super is more like 'hey, that's what it's really supposed to sound like??!!! WOW!!'.
RIGHT ON!
Thanks for giving me more info to digest. This is something I really want/need to get figured out. If I can make some of the process a bit more mechanical (ie have a good starting point) then I can focus more on recording the stuff I'm writing.
I'm going to pick up and mod an Alesis 3630. I've heard that they are absolute crap unmodded, but pretty usuable modded. Is there another cheap compressor I should be considering?
It's funny how some boxes and mics just kind of wake up when they're plugged into something special. You're, right that it justifies your purchases and justifies some of the chances you take.
Did you swap out the Fralin's for your Gilmour EMG's? Or is that a different Strat?
Your friend really knows his shit. Heavy Mid-boost with muddy (muffled) Lows is what the british amps were all about I guess. I had a '64 Marshall Lead 100 MOSFET once with it's original matching half stack of 4 X 10's and it sounded very much like what you're describing. Very muddy and muffled lows with pronounced mids and almost no highs, LOL. They just don't sound like that anymore unless you pay top dollar or buy the antique originals. Marshall was smart to make amps that were designed to mostly emphasize the natural freq range of an electric guitars pickups.
It seems to make for very full bodied chord voicings and huge lead tones.
I love the sound of the Plexi!!! It's a true classic rock sound that's really versatile FLOWING with gobs of natural harmonics.
I also found out the hard way that it's really improtant to hold on to the handmade pedals you're lucky enough to acquire. I've sold some locally made pedals in the past that I never should have let go of. Stuff with silver wiring and true bypass (really really true bypass, LOL). Stuff that (like you said) just makes all the difference in the world. Stuff that blows 98% of the mainstream products OFF-THE-SHELF.
If you mic the front and the back of that amp and track both mics at the same time you should have some amazing recordings that are much beefier than just one 57 against the grill. Makes a big difference IMO.
You're lucky to have access to some other studio's so you can hear what other guys are doing and how their gear sounds.
<<So, the compressor is acting more like a limiter and less at bringing up low parts? So you're keeping your dynamics but taming your peeks?>>
Yes, that's a huge part of it. But to be honest with you, there's other magic working in there that I just don't know how to explain. And I've never been happy with the sound of cheap compressors like my last one which was a Behringer. So I never used it. The Pro VLA though not only uses tubes (yum yum) but uses the Vactrol type compression with uses optical electronics (like the high end classics) instead of operational amplifiers (opamps).
As far as quality analog tube compression goes, I think the Pro VLA is absolutely the best buy...hands down. That's just my opinion, but alot of others share that opinion. However, I like the sound of FMR's RNC and quite a few guys here at DF use the RNC with great results. They're only $179 at the soundroom.com (a quality place to buy from. QUALITY.). The Pro VLA will run you $299 just about anywhere you go. You can try ebay for cheaper prices. Musicians friend ran a catalog - only special last month and I jumped on one for $229 (and it came with quality ElectroHarmonix 12AT7 tubes). It's funny how they'll offer prices in the catalog sometimes that are different on the web. And you have to call in the order so they can have your customer number before they'll give you that special price.
Hopefully you got to go to that college event last night and see and hear some really cool gear. And meet some really cute women too. LOL.
>>> Did you swap out the Fralin's for your Gilmour EMG's? Or is that a different Strat?
Damn you got a good memory!
I had the EMGs in my 89 Candy Apple Red strat. When I got the Z, I started to think of the EMGs as 'steril'. I never did before, but then again, I was using modelling stuff. The Line 6 stuff seems to like active pickups. Once I get the Fralin Vintage Hots in my 79, I was hooked. So, I put a set of Fralin Blues Specials in the 89. It sounds great, but to be honest I almost always play the 79...
>>> Your friend really knows his shit.
Yeah, the dude is a freak of nature! lol
>>> Heavy Mid-boost with muddy (muffled) Lows is what the british amps were all about I guess. I had a '64 Marshall Lead 100 MOSFET once with it's original matching half stack of 4 X 10's and it sounded very much like what you're describing. Very muddy and muffled lows with pronounced mids and almost no highs, LOL. They just don't sound like that anymore unless you pay top dollar or buy the antique originals. Marshall was smart to make amps that were designed to mostly emphasize the natural freq range of an electric guitars pickups.
I would never have believed what you just wrote if I hadn't experienced it myself. 4x10s for a Marshall sound? Nah! (yup!)
>>> I love the sound of the Plexi!!! It's a true classic rock sound that's really versatile FLOWING with gobs of natural harmonics.
I've been thinking of getting the 1987x and having it modded by my friend. He sais it's the one of the best reissues he's heard. But, it's still not the real deal. I just need to spend more time at his place playing through his!
>>> I also found out the hard way that it's really improtant to hold on to the handmade pedals you're lucky enough to acquire. I've sold some locally made pedals in the past that I never should have let go of. Stuff with silver wiring and true bypass (really really true bypass, LOL). Stuff that (like you said) just makes all the difference in the world. Stuff that blows 98% of the mainstream products OFF-THE-SHELF.
Once you get some good boutique pedals, you really start to realize just how crappy some of the mainstream stuff is. Mike builds a handmade 808 that I may have to get some day. But even good pedals suck in the wrong hands. Someone came into the store and was comparing Mike's 808 to a stock tube screamer, and they couldn't really tell a difference. The guy had both pedals in the change. The thing is, Mike's 808 is true bypass but the TS is not, and the guy had Mike's AFTER the TS. When mike switched the order, the guy was blown away! The TS was sucking the life out of the signal when bypassed, not allowing Mike's 808 to shine.
I bet this stuff happens all the time.
>>> If you mic the front and the back of that amp and track both mics at the same time you should have some amazing recordings that are much beefier than just one 57 against the grill. Makes a big difference IMO.
I'm going to try it! I'm on a quest for a cheap compressor now. Something under $200. I was going to mod the Alesis, but I don't think so now. Last night at the Dierks Bently concert, I asked my friend about it and I got the impression that it's just not worth messing with when there are good compressors for a bit more. Oh, handing out at the board for the show was a good time! :)
>>> You're lucky to have access to some other studio's so you can hear what other guys are doing and how their gear sounds.
Yeah, I just need to take more advantage of it.
<<So, the compressor is acting more like a limiter and less at bringing up low parts? So you're keeping your dynamics but taming your peeks?>>
>>> Yes, that's a huge part of it. But to be honest with you, there's other magic working in there that I just don't know how to explain. And I've never been happy with the sound of cheap compressors like my last one which was a Behringer. So I never used it. The Pro VLA though not only uses tubes (yum yum) but uses the Vactrol type compression with uses optical electronics (like the high end classics) instead of operational amplifiers (opamps).
Yeah, been there with the Behringer stuff. I still use the Truths, as I think they're great for the price range. I also have a rack-mount mixer that I use strictly for non-critical playback. I won't buy any of there gear for my important signals though.
>>> As far as quality analog tube compression goes, I think the Pro VLA is absolutely the best buy...hands down. That's just my opinion, but alot of others share that opinion. However, I like the sound of FMR's RNC and quite a few guys here at DF use the RNC with great results.
I've been considering the RNC. I hear it's great on vocals, but I haven't heard any comments with respect to electric or accoustic guitars. I will research the Pro VLA today.
>>> They're only $179 at the soundroom.com (a quality place to buy from. QUALITY.). The Pro VLA will run you $299 just about anywhere you go. You can try ebay for cheaper prices. Musicians friend ran a catalog - only special last month and I jumped on one for $229 (and it came with quality ElectroHarmonix 12AT7 tubes). It's funny how they'll offer prices in the catalog sometimes that are different on the web. And you have to call in the order so they can have your customer number before they'll give you that special price.
I need to pay closer attention to the ads! :)
Thanks again for the compressor recommendation - you've give me some direction. There are so many out there...
>>> Hopefully you got to go to that college event last night and see and hear some really cool gear. And meet some really cute women too. LOL.
Holy moly there were some hot chicks there. I was groovin on the gear though. HUGE board. Some TC Electronics processors, and some other stuff I can't remember the names of. Marty took a lot of time to explain to me how they run the gear. Poor guy. He's coming over tonight to watch some fireworks, and he'll probably be sick of my questions by the time he leaves! :)
I have seen a bunch of ebay auctions from GC that would blow your mind . I guess they think some where there is somebody dumb enough to pay it . They had a ric bass ( not a classic ) for $1700 . When you can buy a new one for a little over a grand . Maybe they are putting it up there for so much and when they don't get it they can report a loss on taxes . ?????????
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